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Started by Peter at 01-14-2007 11:01 PM. Topic has 34 replies.

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   01-14-2007, 11:01 PM
Peter is not online. Last active: 4/5/2009 10:49:53 PM Peter



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Non-Permissible Scores
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With a higher score achieved using Beat the Clock, I think it is appropriate we come to a concensus regarding what is acceptable for scores and what is not. Either that or Tabitha just has to lay down the law =)

We have all read the paragraph on the website regarding what is / isn't acceptable.

I agree with it all, save for what we call exploits.

If something different is achieved when playing, and it is achieved while respecting the rules of the game world, it should be permissible. So, in my opinion, the Splash Garden Mare Switch trick is not a glitch or exploit, but a perfectly normal part of the game, which we were all clever enough to figure out. NiGHTS doesn't do anything weird to perform the switch - it simply lets itself fall onto a dash bumper. Same with the stars in Twin Seeds. Same with collecting chips as kids before becoming NiGHTS.

To me, the backwards time attack would be a normal strategy that is simply better that doing the regular time attack. How is it any different from a backwards SV1?

What I would see as unacceptable, aside from the obvious stuff already covered on the website, would be glitches where, for example, the time or point counter behave incorrectly. Also, and most importantly, it should require skill where there is a reasonable chance of failure. If Beat the Clock somehow meant killing the clock so that it wouldn't return, leading to an infinite point yield, then yes I would see it as illegitimate. However, this is not the case. It is difficult to hit high points using Beat the Clock.

Debating that any one method we have discovered is not the way the game was intended to be played is pointless. For example, the game was probably not meant for players to collect the 20 chips as kids so that you could open capture right away anyways.

I am but one player in this community - what is everyone's. and especially Tab's, view on this?
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   01-15-2007, 8:59 AM
tabitha is not online. Last active: 1/5/2008 9:16:03 AM tabitha



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First and foremost thanks very much for taking the time to think this through and share your thoughts. I don't really feel myself as in a position to lay down the law as such, I mean I just another player. My thoughts on it are pretty similar to you guys in most respects with one caveat, more on that in a moment.

I think that star milking, beat the clock, forwards/backwards runs of the levels and other forms of point maximisation are fine.

I think glitches like falling through the world and inexplicablying getting squillions of points or getting magnetised in SC and then resetting the machine and things arent acceptable.

My one bug bear is anything "infinite" requiring no skill. Pulling off an infinite loop of FB1 is something most players can do after a little practice but its something you must have a certain degree of proficency at.

I dont know how many of you play fighting games but in games like King of Fighters (and many many others) there are a number of things you can do over and over until you win. Some of these are bordeline impossibly hard in normal play while others you can just press the joystick in one direction and press a button and do until the cows come home. Concrete example, with Bao in KoF 2000 you can knock and opponent down and press Foward and B until the opponent is dead. No fun at all to be on the recieving end of. This kind of gameplay, in my opinion requires no skill and isnt fun for the person doing it and I highly doubt its fun to watch.

As for what the Japanese think of it, Gamest and Arcadia ban infinite scores. This is an archive of scores from said magasines.

http://www.aiva.emuita.it/gamest.php

Many entries (daimakaimura or Ghouls and Ghosts for example) just list an infinite score problem and only accept "true" runs through the game.

Anyway, getting to my point (yes I have one) I dont like the Switch exploit in Splash Garden. Before I start on this little riff, full credit to Lance for finding it and its certainly an interesting curio about the game and thanks kindly for sharing it.  The exploit requires little to no skill at all to execute and I wouldnt really want to spent 15 minutes pressing the jump button every second to get an extra 20 000 points on the SG1. I admit due to the fact there is a built in death timer its not "infinite" in the truest sense of the word.

I would argue that ,Beat the clock, star milking, infinite loops, stunt ring cancelling, air brake loops and backwards runs are true to the spirit of the game whereas the SG exploit (I do admit its not a glitch in a game breaking sense of the word) isnt.

Im totally open to discussion and am most interested in hearing what other members of the community have to say. I want to find a solution we are all happy with.


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   01-15-2007, 11:48 AM
gsk is not online. Last active: 3/29/2010 8:43:55 AM gsk



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I dont see any difference between Peter's FB1 strat and Lance's SG switches (if used for pre-mare 1)- the latter just happens to be easier because of the platform that the switch is near, so you dont need to worry about the timer. Neither will create infinite scores because of the time limit. In my opinion, if you allow one you have to allow the other, and my vote is for them to be allowed. It will open up a whole new area of scoring strategy for the 6 main dream's mare 1 scores - whether pts made with the kids can overtake the capture openning time bonus.

I think the cut off point should be when theres a chance of 'breaking' the game - ie Lance's SC reset, or milking stars til the timer runs out (getting the score but it not saving) - those break the rules of the game.

On the matter of backwards records. I think its a legitimate technique for mares but not TA unless it was given a new score table. Because the game naturally still respawns items when you go backswards I think it should be allowed for the main game, and it would be tricky to disallow anyway - do you then not allow collecting to the left of the palace unless you make a full lap forwards - thats just ridiculous. TA on the other hand states 'collect all items in the quickest time possible' and has a counter for 29 items. Going backwards lets you collect more than 29 items which 'breaks' (or 'bends' depending on your point of view I suppose) the rules - if Sonic Team intended that, they wouldnt have put '#/29' on the screen.

There's differences between -

1) exploits in the game that Sonic Team might not have intended, but dont break the game (collecting chips pre mare 1, time restricted star milking, air breaked paraloops etc), and

2) explicitly telling us something is happening that shouldnt be (ie getting more than 29 items in TA) but which is not in the realms  of...

3) just flat out game breaking (star milking until the timer runs out, SC magnetic reset, SG switches for mare 4, link records for mares other than 1).

From there, we have three different approaches - allow them (for the examples in #1), create new categories (ie for #2), or ban 'em (for #3)

To carry on your fighting game comparison Tab, 'buffering' specials after a normal move for combos was a glitch in SF2 which was embraced, while the purposely over powered Akuma in SSF2T was dissallowed in Tournements.

I agree that ultimately its about coming to a consensus that we're all happy with, but we cant be hypocritical, picking one thing but not another because of illegitimate reasons.

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   01-15-2007, 3:21 PM
Peter is not online. Last active: 4/5/2009 10:49:53 PM Peter



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That's pretty much what I was thinking, but expanded to include a 'middle ground'. So, we would have Category 1 , 2 , and 3 strats, with only 1 being completely acceptable as-is. I like it.

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   01-16-2007, 11:31 AM
gsk is not online. Last active: 3/29/2010 8:43:55 AM gsk



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i think there are some strats which just shouldnt be allowed, ie the ones I listed in catergory 3. They're just oddities, freakish scores that are fun but cant be taken seriously. Are you saying we should have tables for those?

Anyway, I'm going to experiment with some mare 1s when I've got time to see if it works beyond FB.

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   01-21-2007, 3:23 AM
gsk is not online. Last active: 3/29/2010 8:43:55 AM gsk



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 As Lance Way predicted, I've got SG1 up to 126k  - and that was with a bad run, breaking the link a few times. And that score coincidently, brings the SA.net potential score over the JNP one - so was the JNP record done using that exploit? Are we allowing this or not?

Edit - SGT 646980, SG1 132560 (41k+ with the switches)

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   01-21-2007, 6:32 AM
tabitha is not online. Last active: 1/5/2008 9:16:03 AM tabitha



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A fine question, personally Im not a fan of the chip switch thing but I agree its not a game breaking bug. Were it up to me alone (which I dont feel for a second it is) I would vote no. If everyone else is for it then I rethink the rules page.

Im assuming you and Peter are for it? I would like to get Ben's input as well seeing as he is the only other active member of the site submitting scores at the moment.

Let me have your input and then we can adjust the rules accordingly.

Im curious how long you took getting starts from the switch?

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   01-21-2007, 7:18 AM
Peter is not online. Last active: 4/5/2009 10:49:53 PM Peter



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I vote Allow.
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   01-21-2007, 12:03 PM
gsk is not online. Last active: 3/29/2010 8:43:55 AM gsk



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I can understand arguements for both sides, and I'm not sure myself, though yeah I'm leaning towards yes. The clincher for me though is that we either allow all pts collected as kids pre mare 1, whether its a few chips or 600 stars, or we dont allow any. Looking at the level design, Sonic Team have put loads of items in places where Nights can never get to, so maybe they wanted people to search them out, find out ways to maximise points, and the switches might be sneaky, but so is star milking in TS, so are stunts in SM (glitch or not?), so is air braked paralooped (though that equates to powerslides in racing games now that I think about it). I dunno, I just thing another couple of goes and I'll break the JNP SG record - so maybe I'm a little bias! lol

SM could be interesting - theres loads of chips scattered about. And SV has chips in trees as Peter pointed out.

lui

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   01-21-2007, 9:27 PM
Miles is not online. Last active: 11/10/2009 6:43:05 PM Miles

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My opinion probably doesn't matter as much, but I think it should be allowed.
http://www.elitescores.com/
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   01-22-2007, 12:59 PM
gsk is not online. Last active: 3/29/2010 8:43:55 AM gsk



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Hey Miles. How can the opinion of SA.net's leading Boss Master not count?

Which makes me think, do you consider the gap in Gillwings tail a glitch? What about passing through Wizeman? Looking back, should they have been allowed?

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   01-22-2007, 5:12 PM
Miles is not online. Last active: 11/10/2009 6:43:05 PM Miles

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Wizeman definitely isn't a glitch. However, looking back on it, going through Gillwing's tail seems like it might be a glitch... I don't think that it's too severe to be disallowed, though.
http://www.elitescores.com/
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   01-23-2007, 12:34 PM
gsk is not online. Last active: 3/29/2010 8:43:55 AM gsk



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Ah but thats my point... blah blah etc etc things I've already said...

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   01-23-2007, 8:50 PM
tabitha is not online. Last active: 1/5/2008 9:16:03 AM tabitha



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Miles, your opinion is totally required, I didnt mention you simply cause you havent been about much lately, no reflection on how valuable your opinion is. Thanks for your input.

So, it looks like the star switch is in based on general opinion. I am going to update the rules page accordingly but I would like a little input. I think we should clarify a couple of terms, I think glitches should refer to things which obviously break the mechanics of the game in a way it wasnt intended and as Lui pointed out, should not be allowed for scoring purposes:

Glitches (not allowed for scoring)

- The SM magnetism glitch found by lance
- Falling through the world as the kids and getting massive scores due to memory card corruption
- The SG 2 to SG 3 warp glitch. (not sure if this can be used for scoring)

Other things not breaking the game mechanics used for Milking/point maximisation/exploits (need a good name) are allowed for scoring

- Hole in gillwings tail
- flying through wiseman
- SG1 star switch trick
- Tree shaking as the kids
- Stunt cancelling by hitting walls
- Star milking in TS
- Small loops in SM
- Time attack backwards (should this be one category? as lui mentioned?)
- Beating the clock

Im sure I have missed some exploits and possibly a glitch or two so if you guys could help me fill out this list I will update the page. Also I think we need a term for point maximising techniques and glitch should be used for game breaking wierdness.

any comments?

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   01-24-2007, 9:09 AM
Peter is not online. Last active: 4/5/2009 10:49:53 PM Peter



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WHAT?? Memory corruption scores disallowed? Curses, I was just about to submit a 15,875,520 Frozen Bell score under the heading 'Eat that, Japan!'.

On a more serious note, is there a Japanese ScoreAttack-type site which may be tracking current Japanese high scores for NiGHTS? Perhaps we can compare what is / is not permitted by our friends from the Land of the Rising Sun.
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